Ep. 1 - Reflections on a Forced Exit

Being forced to leave a place of service is an experience of suffering common to many missionaries. In this episode, Erik White tells his family’s story of leaving Central Asia.

Transcript

Introduction: What Is Missio Ecclesia?

Intro 0:04

This is Missio Ecclesia, sharing stories from the mission field, engaging ideas with charity, and recovering the church as the center of missions.

Dean 0:19

Welcome everyone to the very first episode of a new podcast, Missio Ecclesia. Well, we need to clarify that as well, don't we? Ecclesia? Ecclesia.

Sam 0:36

Oh, we can talk about it right now.

Dean 0:39

Do you have some strong opinion about it?

Sam 0:40

It's Missio Ecclesia, just in case anybody's wondering. That's what the guy in our little intro says.

Dean 0:46

Oh, really? Oh, well, if I'm I'm I'm outvoted from the start. Ecclesia.

Erik 0:54

Logsdon says Missio Ecclesia.

Sam 0:56

Ecclesia.

Erik 0:57

I don't think that's right, though.

The Heart of the Podcast: Mission Through the Church

Dean 0:59

I feel like I should probably stick with the correct thing. I'll mess it up down the road. I'll try to do it correctly right now. Welcome everyone to the very first episode of Missio Ecclesia, a podcast sure to gain worldwide fame very, very soon. We're really glad that you're here. My name is Dean Polk. I've been serving with my family in Central Asia for about 13 years, but I want to turn quickly to my co-host, Sam Martyn, and ask him to tell us a little bit about himself and also to unpack this fantastic tagline that hopefully describes what we're trying to be about here. Sam?

Sam 1:46

Yeah. So together with my wife Olivia and our three children, we moved to Central Asia in 2011. That was after six years of serving as an associate pastor in a local church in the North Atlanta area. Went to Central Asia in 2011 and went with an opportunity to serve alongside a local church and a local national partner that was looking to do church planting along the Black Sea coast in Central Asia. And so raised our three children overseas in 2020. We got banned from the place that we were living, forced to move. And we've been in Europe ever since, in the country of Germany, but continuing to reach out to Central Asians that are there, but really all the peoples that are around us. So the podcast title, Missio Ecclesia, and our tagline there is about the mission of the church. That's what the heartbeat of this podcast is. We want to unpack what God is doing in the world to reconcile the nations to himself, but how he is doing that through the agent, the means, and the fruit of the local church. And so the first thing that we want to do with this podcast is we want to share stories from the mission field. We don't want to share stories that are like these polished success stories or these, you know, really glamorous things. We're gonna we want to include things that show just how difficult and challenging this work can often be. We want real stories. We want you to hear from people who are serving in some pretty amazing places and to hear about the amazing things that our God is doing around the world in this work. Stories that just remind us how Jesus is building his church in ways that are often surprising to us, ways that are slower than we might sometimes hope. But yeah. So, second, we want to engage ideas with charity. We think that missions conversations can sometimes be tribal. They can sometimes be tense. And we just want to model how brothers and sisters can both agree, but also sometimes disagree while still loving each other well and helping each other to think biblically about this great work that God's called us to. So we want to be cheerful, we want to be convictional as we go about this, we want to be confessional as we go about this. And then third, we're really aiming to be a voice in this space in the missions world for recovering the church as the center of missions. So, not strategies, not personalities, great missionaries, though all of us have benefited from learning from stories of great missionaries in the past, but not really focused on that, not focused on agencies or mission-sending agencies. Those, those are valuable and have their place too. But really the church, Jesus' church, a God's chosen instrument for seeing the gospel go forward and advance among the nations. And this podcast is just one way that we want to be a part of calling the church globally in the work that we're doing in missions back to the center of what God's doing. So that's a little bit about me. That's a little bit about what this podcast is hopefully going to be about. Dean, why don't you tell them a little bit about your background? Like where did you start out? How did you get to Central Asia? What um has God been doing in your life up to this point?

Dean 5:15

Yeah, thanks. Happy to do that. I do I do want to just read the tagline in in total really quickly to sort of recap your exposition thereof. And here it is: sharing stories from the mission field, engaging ideas with charity, and recovering the church as the center of missions. Yeah, so uh uh I was um sort of a catch-all second pastor at a smallish church on the East Coast for about nine years before we moved uh to Central Asia to work with uh Muslim uh minorities. We spent nine years uh in the the first country that we were in, and like you had to leave that country really against our wishes. Maybe that's a story for some other uh episode. Then we spent four and a half years in a second country in Central Asia, and then just in January moved to a third. Again, not what we wanted to do, but we trust the Lord. Uh I'm married and have three uh sons, all young men uh at this point. And it's yeah, it's a great privilege to get to do this podcast with you, Sam.

Sam 6:28

Yeah, our age our kids' ages are pretty close too, so we're kind of navigating like this college student phase of life. And uh I mean, Olivia and I are empty nesters now. You're on your way there. Yeah.

Erik’s Story: Called, Sent, and Forced to Leave

Dean 6:39

On the way there. Yeah, it's been good to commiserate with you about the leanings of our college, political leanings of our of our college sons.

Sam 6:47

So enough about us.

Dean 6:50

Yes. Yeah. So speaking, you you mentioned unpolished stories, so we brought our best unpolished story on as our uh first guest today. We're thankful for Erik White. Erik White is actually a part of the team here at Missio uh let me get this right. Aaron Powell It's Ecclesia, man. It's Ecclesia. Ecclesia, Ecclesia, Missio Ecc Ecclesia. And so it seemed fitting.

Sam 7:14

Because I think we have the Latin spelling. Maybe if it were Greek, we could say ecclesia, or but I'll defer to you.

Dean 7:20

You can correct me moving forward. Uh but it seemed fitting to have Erik on as our first guest. Brother, we're glad that you're here. And just want to ask you to also give us a brief uh bio of yourself and and your family.

Erik 7:34

Dean, you stole my joke because I was going to say I'll be example number one of not having polished stories. It's great, great to be with you both. I love and appreciate you um both so much and glad to be a part of this endeavor. So I was born and raised on the west coast of the United States. Uh, that's where I first heard the gospel from my parents, and by God's grace, uh, was involved in a local church growing up, and in that church, heard about missions on a regular basis. And then it was at the second church that my family was at that I aspired to be in ministry leadership, and uh others in my life were affirming that and went to university, went to seminary, kind of with that in mind, was serving on staff at a local church. Um, and in the midst of getting married to my wife and finishing up seminary, it was just clear that the Lord was leading us to go overseas cross-culturally. We didn't know anything about Central Asia, but through many different scenarios and seeking the wisdom of others, talking with our organization, all sorts of things, the Lord led us to a team in in Central Asia. So we served for five, I served for five years on a church staff, and then the Lord sent us through our local church uh to Central Asia, and uh we landed. My wife and I were young in our mid-20s, but the Lord was kind to put us on a great team, and we served there and in one other city uh over the last 13 years uh since 2012, first among a minority people group and then among the majority language group there in the country. And yeah, we loved it. We uh after the first two years, we were kind of using that as a testing ground. Lord, is this what you want us to do long term? And at the end of that time, though there were job offers and other things on the table, uh, it just the Lord gave us the desire to remain there. It was affirmed by others around us, so we thought that was going to be the next 30 years of our lives in in that country, and by God's grace, we were given more than a decade uh after that, but uh just this last October in the fall of 2025, uh, when I was trying to fly back to be with my family. Um, I was not allowed on the plane. Uh, they couldn't even get my boarding pass because the government was blocking me from traveling there. So my wife and son and my father-in-law, who went and helped, had to pack up our home. The help of our local church and brothers and sisters and co-workers there during that time was invaluable. They just really rallied around us. And I waited in a country nearby while my wife packed up our lives. And come to find out on the way out, she was also given an entry ban. So neither of us were able to enter back into the country that we love uh and that we served in and desired to see the gospel spread in those thirteen years. That's where we are.

Lessons from the Field: What Was Worth It (and What Wasn’t)

Dean 10:57

Yeah, we were yeah, we were actually all three of us were together at that meeting in October, and I remember the gut punch of getting your text that you were at the airport and couldn't board the uh plane. So tough. Yes. Being being forced to leave the place that you've come to love, that you've given your life to is a is an experience that's familiar to all of us. Um it's painful. Uh and it's it's happened most recently to you. So it it actually gives us a bit of an opportunity, uh, sort of in the freshness of uh of having to walk away to hear you ask you to reflect on those 13 plus years in in basically uh one one place. Your your ability to impact the work uh there uh we assume is not over, uh, but it's fundamentally changed and and probably forever. And so yeah, we're eager to sort of draw out from you your reflections as you look back on that time. And of course, we want to we want to get to questions of strategy and sort of unpack the decisions you made about where to invest and maybe even regrets that you have about some of those things. But maybe start uh just with sharing with us things from that place, from that time that you are particularly thankful for.

Erik 12:29

There are so many things that I could list in my mind. We could spend the rest of the time talking about that. But if if I were to just talk about a few, the Lord was kind to teach me a lot about his providence, his sovereignty over all things. I don't think I would have lasted over a decade serving there or desire to continue serving in cross-cultural context, had he not grown that in my heart through Bible teaching, through experience. And he just provided over and over. I think if you had given me a list of all the difficulties that we would go through before we moved there and say, You're gonna go through these things in the next 13 years, I don't think I would be courageous enough to still jump on the ship and say, Okay, we're gonna go. You know, terrorist bombings, uh, political upheaval, infertility, uh, difficulties with teammates and with local national brothers and sisters, and many other difficulties, but the Lord carried us through those things. Uh that's the thing that I'm most grateful for. And and and then, of course, there's a myriad of other things. The fact that our son got to grow up there, a place with so much history and beauty, that he's bilingual, those are just great things that I trust the Lord will use in his life and shape him as a person. The deep relationships that we had with brothers and sisters in the local churches that we were a part of over the years, and then in in partner churches to see their faith and to experience that, to see the Lord cause them to persevere and and to have fun with them, just deep loving relationships and getting to see the start of some of their journeys, getting to see people transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light, yeah, to come from death to life. Uh just this last year, four different sisters that we got to experience um the Lord causing them to be born again and just the change in their lives, though they still struggle and wrestle with sin and fear and all sorts of things, just wit getting to witness that on the front lines.

Dean 14:45

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I remember you telling me the story of one of those sisters and the courage that she had to go through with getting baptized when her father called Sunday morning, uh threatening her. And um I you guys as elders gave her the opportunity to pause, but she went through with it. And uh that's it's really amazing.

Erik 15:06

Yeah, over and over. I'm sorry to interrupt you. No, uh oh, yeah, over and over there were stories like that. An offgone brother being threatened by his roommates and yet continued in in faith. Um yeah. Fearless, seemingly fearless believers evangelizing and sharing the gospel. So many things I'm I'm thankful for. And the food. The food in our country is good. So I'm grateful for that as well.

Sam 15:33

Yeah, praise God, Erik. So much of what you're talking about just really resonates with me and my own time there uh in that same country. And um, you know, things like watching your kids uh grow up in a culture, uh getting to see people transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of his beloved son, uh, getting to work with faithful nationals, the deep friendships, all of that, just incredible. Uh, I've been turning over in my own mind uh for the past couple weeks, uh uh Colossians chapter 1, verses 24 to 29, where Paul says that he rejoices in his sufferings, filling up what's lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of the church. Uh so and really there so that the gospel would be advanced among the Gentiles, among the nations, uh, so that every believer would be presented mature in Christ, that God has appointed missionary suffering for the advance of the gospel among the nations, that it's not some kind of barrier to the work that he's doing in the world, but it's actually something that he's using to bring that to an end. And getting, you know, banned from a country is a piece of that. So we're so grateful for that testimony that you shared and that the long desire, the desire to be on the field for a long time. One other thing that I've been wrestling with too, and that I just want to pass on to you, is you know, there's so many good things that we can do with and give our lives to, honestly. Uh, but we can't do all of them, you know. We have to make choices with our time. So looking back, and you think about the things that you invested your time in, and uh I'm just kind of curious what are the ways that now looking back, you say, yeah, that was really worth it. Uh, what are the things that you look back and say, I'm so glad that I poured myself into that?

Erik 17:28

Yeah, it's a great question. And we've had some opportunity to reflect. And as I was leading others and they'd come on their first terms, I'd try to encourage them in light of experience. Uh, I think the first thing that that comes to mind is we were pushed and encouraged and even required to go deep in language and culture. And what that means is we spent the first two years on the field doing 30 plus hours a week of language study, either in community or with a tutor. And I that's just the wisest investment a cross-cultural worker can make in the beginning is is going deep because it's really hard to go back and sharpen language or change accent or relearn something. Um, so just at in those beginning days, it's so important. And and just uh by way of an example, I remember in the second city we lived in, there were these two brothers from another organization who uh we met with, and they told us, hey, we found the two guys who are going to lead the church planting network that we're starting. Um, and we were surprised by that. Uh, but um it we had a local brother, national brother mature believer, go and meet with them, and he said, Guys, they're not even Christians, they don't believe in the deity of Christ, they like his teachings, but they don't understand the Trinity. And I think the reason those those brothers from the organization thought they were gonna be the leaders of of their network of churches is because they didn't have good enough language and culture. Um, we were still working on it at that time, but that was motivating to me that I don't want to get ever get caught in a situation like that. So uh I I think that's uh one of the first things that comes to mind. I think the second thing would be a member of a of a church nearly um the entire time we were on the field. There were a couple months here and there after we moved that we were looking at at a new church or or trying to figure out which church to join. But from the first month we were there, we joined a local house church um full of expats. There were 20 adults plus kids, and we didn't kind of get it at first, if I were honest. And then just to see how the Lord used the brothers who were pastoring that church, we had a church covenant faithfully teaching the word. Um, that experience shaped the rest of the 13 years for me. And we were always a member of either an English speaking or a uh local language church throughout our time. And um so you would say that missionaries should do that. Oh, 100%. It's vital. Uh I we wouldn't have lasted 13 years on the field had we not been uh a member of a local church um uh the supermajority of the time. And um the Lord because not everybody agrees with that, right? Yes, there are those that would say maybe since we are there to plant new churches, we would should wait until a new church starts. But especially in that first term, you need so much spiritual encouragement, motivation, uh, support, exhortation from those around you in a language you can understand. And then when you are able to speak the language, the most um not just the most fruitful way, not that we're just looking at it as kind of this pragmatic, what is what's gonna result in the best things. Um, it but the fact that it's commanded to not forsake gathering together, and then I think it is the most fruitful way to uh engage the lost and see more churches planted. There's those that steer lean away from modeling something because they don't want to model some sort of western uh form of church, but not modeling something is modeling something. So we want to model being faithful church members from day one because that's gonna bolster our witness on the field. So I don't I don't uh regret that at all. I think that was a wise investment. I think uh quickly a few other things. If I were to mention just shifting in my evangelism mindset from sharing to more declaring the the gospel, uh from the pulpit, Erik, or in conversation. What do you mean? From uh from the pulpit in conversation, I think there's a in a lot of Muslim contexts, there can be a temptation to uh do do just a cultural exchange. You believe this, I believe that. But we need a shift in our minds that no, this is the truth, not just sharing what I believe, but what I think the truth is. And I think that's that's a helpful mindset that early on I was encouraged towards, and I think I leaned into by God's grace, though I was still weak in in many areas. Uh, I think also uh we need to have a broad network of contacts, but we also need to build deep relationships, and I think that was a wise investment. Um time spent uh training up and encouraging leaders, and then lastly, I think uh I spent a significant amount of time project managing to help translate helpful books into the local language and then distribute them among churches and then using that to train local leaders and and the fact that someone said somewhere books last longer than people. Uh, I think that's typically true. So hopefully those books that that we help produce will will last longer and will have an impact for decades.

Dean 23:21

Yeah. Erik, thanks for that. And from someone that watched you from afar for a long time, it seems like by God's grace, you made great decisions about where to invest.

Sam 23:33

And we we Yeah, those are all really great.

Dean 23:36

Yeah, we thank God for that. Yeah, 1 Corinthians 3 kind of comes to mind for me as I think about your story. You know, Paul at the beginning of that chapter reminds the Corinthians, he says, I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. And, you know, in many ways that's your story. And in some areas you planted, in other areas you were the one watering. But the the testimony uh in all of it is that God was uh giving the growth. And then later, as you guys well know, 1 Corinthians 3, Paul exhorts the Corinthians and he says, Let each one take care how he builds. And that charge is never far from our minds.

Sam 24:20

I think my favorite passage for church planting overseas.

Dean 24:24

Oh, really? Oh well, I should get your notes.

Sam 24:27

It's so good.

Dean 24:28

Um, but you know, I think about that, you know, that day, you know, when when our work uh will be made manifest and it'll be clear, did I build with with gold and silver and precious stone, or was I building with wood and hay and straw? And so I assume for all of us there's going to be some of both. Uh and so maybe the same question, Erik, kind of from the from the other side, um, is are there initiatives or methods or spheres that you gave time to that looking back, uh, you'd probably do it differently if you if you had the chance. Or in other words, are there places where maybe you built with wood, hay, and straw? And those that are listening could learn from that.

Erik 25:16

You know, it's interesting. It just this moment came to mind that that was a passage I chose to study for my biblical interpretation class, my junior year in university. And uh, that's not been something that's at the surface that I've gone back to, but just trusting that the Lord used that uh in my life, even when I was 21, um, and didn't know I would be we should go pull that paper out and oh man, I don't know if I would want to pull that paper out, but I did I well that would be prideful of me. I I did now I have to say it, I did get the highest score in the class, which I was very surprised by. And the professor made a big deal of it.

Sam 25:56

This is a fact, man. That's not pride.

Erik 25:58

So it's just a fact. Um, but the Lord used that because I'm as we're about to talk about, I have messed up in many ways and have many weaknesses. Uh I the the list of regrets, I don't think by God's grace, is longer than the list of things I'm uh I think I spent um wisely my time wisely, but I I do have things that um I could just see clearly that the Lord is using crooked sticks to draw straight lines. Yeah, yeah. So first thing that comes to mind is I wish I had a more formed ecclesiology before coming. I've heard it talked about that if if a healthy church is like a car, everybody wants to drive in that car. Some people know how to uh actually steer the car, but what we need for people who are serving cross-culturally in planting churches is people who are able to build that car, um, build that engine and repair that engine because that's so much of the work. It's not just driving it, but but repairing it and building it. And I don't think I I had that. I wish I would have um been equipped or done the work myself um before coming to the field in a greater way. And and related to that, I wish we had as a family invested in existing local churches sooner, especially national churches. We were a part of the house church, but it was kind of separate in relating at times, or at least in my own mind it was. And I wish we would have had we would have leaned into those relationships sooner, um, and just see what the Lord did with it. Not even with any strategy or or specific desire to come from that, other than loving brothers and sisters, encouraging them and and trusting that the Lord would use those relationships somehow as he did later on. I think I kind of moving to the to the other or a different part of the equation. I think I started learning the minority language too soon. I wish I had spent longer going deeper in the majority language before shifting into the second language that I started to learn. I think it actually hurt both of my uh language acquisitions because I jumped into that. I was so eager and wasn't patient. And so after two years of language study, or maybe two and a half years, I jumped into the minority language, and I wish I would have waited a little bit longer. And then just internally, I think there's things that I struggled with, with living in the fear of man um too much, whether it was my co-workers or unbelievers that I was proclaiming the gospel to, or national brothers and sisters I was interacting with. Uh I think I was crippled at times or fueled at times by the fear of man rather than uh entrusting myself to the Lord and being okay with things that were happening. Uh, I think there was also a struggle in my heart at times to convince myself that because I was doing this hard thing, this quote unquote hard thing, my little sins didn't matter as much, or maybe I would be forgiven. Some of this warped works righteousness that was would go on in my mind and in my heart. So I think I I wrestled with that and regret that that those were things that I gave time to or gave portions of my heart to. Um, but the Lord has has been kind to continue to sanctify me by his spirit through his word. And then as a family, uh I haven't led our family, my wife and my son, always in living out sustain sustainable sacrifice well. I think I've just tended to uh drive too hard on the sacrifice times and and and not lead us in a in a balanced practice of sustainable sacrifice on the field.

Sam 30:03

Um yeah, I like that language. That's super helpful um uh way to think about it.

Erik 30:09

Yeah, it's not original to m to me. I think that's zeal without burnout. I think it comes from that book.

Why Stay? Longevity, Strategy, and the Local Church

Sam 30:16

Um I really appreciate your honesty and your transparency in that, brother. And I think that every missionary that's been on the field for any length of time has wrestled with a lot of those things. I mean, uh again, it resonates with me the idea of fear of man, fear of nationals, teammates. So we've all had our you know, wood, hay, and straw moments uh in that. So I just really appreciate yeah, you're unpucking that with transparency.

Dean 30:40

Yeah, I agree. I agree, that's helpful. So, Erik, the Lord gave you in his grace those thirteen years, and we praise God for that. But there would be some that would say that you stayed too long. Uh there were churches uh in the place where you served, there were national churches, national leaders, uh that it would have been a better investment of your years to go to places of greater lostness. Then on the other side of that, you have the great missionary hero John Patton from the New Hebrides in the 19th century with that famous quote uh that I'm sure you've read and quoted before, where he said, Plant down your forces in the heart of one tribe or race, work solidly from that center, building up with patient teaching and lifelong care, a church that will endure? You've already said that you would have liked to stay for 30 years, a lot longer than what uh the Lord gave you if that had been possible. Why is that? That you would have stayed longer if you could have? And then, sort of maybe a broader but related question is how do we assess when we have fulfilled the ministry, to use a Pauline phrase uh that God has given us?

Erik 32:05

Yeah, this is uh an important question. And this could be a question for a country, a people, a language group, a city, even just in a local church, right? Uh you have to wrestle with this question kind of in all of those contexts in some way. Uh I think if our goal were to merely throw seeds of the gospel, then yes, we could move on quickly. Or even if our goal were to see people come to faith, uh if that if that were the the totality of what we were aiming at, then maybe you would move on sooner. But I think the Great Commission is to establish local churches and teach them to obey all that he has commanded us. Now that can be subjective to know at what point we we should pass off the baton. Um, and there's lots of other questions that come out of this uh that maybe we'll address in future episodes. Should missionaries serve as elders or uh what does it mean to plant a church? Should should missionaries be a part of national churches? Lots of things that we could branch off to. But I think if we just think we want to have uh established churches, not just existing churches. And so in that, I think there are patterns that need to be set for the local believers. I think there's structures that that need to um be taught them from God's word. I think you need brothers and sisters to grow in maturity, which just takes time, right? And and then one of the most important things is they need leaders. Um, so of course, uh a covenanted body of of believers is a church, even if they don't yet have an elder. But elders are so vital for the ongoing health of a church and the propagation of the gospel and the growth of maturity um in the lives of local believers. And and that takes time. So that patient plotting, that that patience to see the Lord chip away at someone's character, um, that's not something that that we can speed up, that we can control really at all. So I think a majority of the time that's going to mean, uh, especially in unengaged, less reached, unreached context, that's going to mean we plant ourselves and stay for a very long time to see churches uh established and built up so that they do have faithful, godly leaders who are able to teach with strong character. And then another concept that I think maybe we can't like point directly to from a passage in scripture, but the idea of one of our friends talks about gospel infrastructures. We see this a lot in church history, just these sorts of infrastructures that help churches, that help missionaries at the start, and then national believers, just all the things that that in the state we probably take. What's an example of that, Erik? Yeah, so in the states we take for granted things like uh songbooks or hymnals or theological education or good books to read or networks of churches. It it can be uh the Bible fully translated, um, resources to help us understand the Bible, uh, encouragement um to local pastors, uh, and then maybe even at the start, it's an English-speaking church for the missionaries who first come in, who first land and need the body of Christ themselves. All of these things are pieces of infrastructure that help churches not just be planted for one generation, but Lord willing, last for many generations, and they themselves begin to send and have sending capabilities. And without those infrastructures, um, I think it's just so easy for churches to to fall into pragmatisms or worse things, false gospels like like the prosperity gospel be lured that way without theological education, without good books, without relationships with other churches. It's just so easy to to veer off the straight and narrow path. And I think that those infrastructures are part of what the Lord is pleased to use to help the gospel last for generations in a place.

Dean 36:29

Sam, anything to add there on questions of longevity and when the work is done?

Sam 36:37

No, I think um I think Erik summed it up pretty good for us there. Um seeing a church established because it is the bride of Christ. It is the pillar and foundation of the truth. It is the means by which God is doing his work in the world. And yeah, we're not just after converts. We're not just after um, you know, uh how many people here believe in Jesus? Raise your hand and and moving on. It's, you know, really trying to see an established church with faithful leaders.

Dean 37:08

Yeah, both of you right there, uh Sam just did it, and Erik, you did it several times, and talking about leaders in the plural in any given uh local church. And I think that's so important, is that for for churches to endure, we need a plurality of mature uh leaders that are caring for a particular flock. So, Erik, this this conversation about gospel infrastructure is is part of maybe a larger conversation about the state of the church, right? And the the infrastructure conversation helps us to think about where the church is, which then sort of gets to where we as foreign workers fit in to the work. And so, you know, I know from your story that you served in different capacities in your time, that you were you were a church member, you helped to to plant an English language church and serve there as an elder, then you were uh an elder in a in a national language church. And so I just be curious to hear your commentary on I mean, a lot of it is just providential, right? But but why did you serve in those particular roles at those particular times? Like what were some of the principles that helped guide you uh there? Again, recognizing so much of this is just the the doors that God providentially opens up and and closes.

Erik 38:40

Yeah, I think first I would say to our maybe our tribe, our perspective, that um serving as an elder in a local church, whether it's an English-speaking international church or a local language church or a minority language church, that is a great way for a missionary to invest their time. A brother in Christ who is qualified and equipped to do that. Um, if there's an opportunity for that, and and that might be the thing, what what the church they planted needs most in the in the beginning years, you might have a local brother ask you to serve alongside him. You you might see that serving as an elder in an international church would just be really fruitful for networking or helping plant local language churches or building up others in Christ or just modeling healthy biblical eldership to those around you. But serving as an elder is by no means the only way, the only role that missionaries can or should have on the field. And it might not even be the majority role that they take up. There are a myriad of ways for missionaries to serve on the field, especially when we think about those gospel infrastructure sort of things, um, whether it's evangelistic outreach with broadseed sowing ministries, or it's book translation, or uh it's equipping new brothers and sisters on the field, or it's uh doing different trainings in local churches to help strengthen those churches, or serving more in a business setting where you have lots of contact with with local believers. I think it it just behooves us to be okay with many different roles that a missionary can take on the field. And I think that that process should start with your sending church on the field uh or back where you're in your home country, they know you, they know your giftings and your desires. They should begin having those conversations with you. I think leaders on the field should help people think about how they want to spend their time, their giftings, their desires. And then I think we should submit ourselves to local brothers and sisters on the field. If they ask us to do something, and even if it's not the exact way that we would do it, uh what a model of humility and faithfulness is it to um serve our brothers and sisters in ways that they're asking us to. And many times that might be to pastor a church for a brother uh who's who's equipped and qualified to do so. There's there's so many different things that we can and should be doing on the field to help see churches started and strengthened.

Dean 41:30

Yeah, and I really appreciate what you said there. You know, all of us have been in conversations, sort of defending the the wisdom of sometimes missionaries serving as elders in national churches. Sam has written about that, but we don't want to exalt that to the level of of suggesting that that's the only good way uh for missionaries to serve. So I appreciate you sort of highlighting that there's so many roles that men and women can take uh in the work, uh, depending on the opportunities that are before them, their gifts, the state of the state of the church.

Sam 42:06

That's so good.

Dean 42:08

Erik, that's just excellent stuff, brother. Thank you for being on the podcast with us today. Any anything that you would like to add in closing?

Erik 42:18

Well, I would love to ask you, brothers, as I'm moving into this season where I, Lord willing, we'll have a new context where I'm faithfully a member of a local church and trying to work in and through that church. I'll be uh doing some other things, some other roles as well. But at the same time, I want to continue to invest in the brothers and sisters, the pastors and elders of churches and the local churches back in the country where I'm banned from. I want to lean into those relationships still. Um and and in the Lord's providence, you both have been experiencing this longer than I have, five plus years of not being able to go back to the country where you love and and served so faithfully. And yet you've done a good job, I think, of investing from afar. So, what are some tips that you would give to me as I'm moving into this next season? Uh, how would you look to invest from afar?

Sam 43:20

Yeah, so I I would say staying in constant communication is important. You know, in the organization that we're all a part of, we talk about exiting but a place eventually, um, you know, and having the example of that in the Apostle Paul. But we're not talking about just leaving, we're talking about exiting to partnership. So when Paul left, he continued, you know, writing letters, he continued to be invested in the work, he continued to send resources, uh, human resources, financial resources, and others as well. And I think of that as just an excellent model for us in our own work. So uh, you know, the place that we had to leave, I continued to talk with the national brother that I most closely partnered with. We talked Okay, just about every Tuesday continuing. Uh some of the brothers that we invested in just as we were leaving, and well, we kind of felt that we we had an eight-month window there at the end when we knew we're gonna have to be gone. And we sought to make deep investments before we left, trying to use every minute that we had well, because we don't know when we're going to have to leave the place that we are, and it may come sooner than later. So we made those investments and continue to talk with those brothers uh every week with uh a couple of them especially, and just praying with them, hearing the things that they're wrestling through in their local churches, hopes and dreams that they have for the work, uh, counsel, uh just those things. So the communication and just staying in touch. I mean, I can't go back there now. They've come and visited me, thankfully, a couple of them have, uh, but just staying in regular communication and praise God for the means that we have these days to be able to do that well.

Erik 44:56

A couple of those brothers were sent out to pastor churches or are being raised up to, Lord willing, one day pastor churches as well. So you're you're a part of their continued growth. Yeah, praise the Lord. Dean?

Dean 45:14

Yeah, I don't I don't have a lot to add to to what Sam uh said, but uh what a privilege to have the means to stay in touch so easily. I mean, I do think that Paul is the model, you know, all of the effort he put into staying in touch uh with the with the churches that he planted after he had to leave those places, and it's so much easier for us. And I think that the the the the National Brothers and Sisters that are there probably have the question in their mind, consciously or or not, you know, will Erik stay our friend? You know, and it's gonna mean so much to them that that they remain important to you. And uh, you know, we've had the privilege of continuing to gather uh with those folks outside of that country a couple times a year for the last five years. That's just been really a sweet privilege. But you know, I'm on the phone with somebody, either by text or otherwise. Nearly every day, not every day, but a lot. And uh I I think you still have a significant role to play in just investing in those folks and communicating how important they are to you and and they'll value that deeply. So yeah, go for it.

Erik 46:27

I I think I would add, brothers, just watching you the last five years is you actually have invested uh in your new locations, and I think that has continued to be a model for those that you've invested in. You're faithful in those churches and in those contexts, and and that's part of your investment from afar.

Sam 46:48

And it hasn't always come easy. I mean, it it really was a challenge for us to get to the place where we really wanted to be in our new context. Um, my favorite Jim Elliott quote used to be Um He's no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. But my new favorite Jim Elliott quote is wherever you are, be all there. And uh the Lord's really had to teach us that over the last few years. That's good.

Dean 47:13

Erik, it's been good to have you, brother, and we are very thankful for you. And may the Lord direct you in the months and the years ahead, and may He give you a great sense of confidence that he's with you and for you and has good things in store. So we're we're really glad that you were on today. And to those who listen today, thank you uh for being here. We hope you'll come back for future episodes.

Intro 47:40

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